October 11, 2021
The "Not on this trip" Converted Bike Fridays
My incidental mention of converting our Bike Fridays to use air flight legal batteries seemed to trigger a wave of interest, even though the conversion is a project for use in the next tour, not this one. Questions have abounded, so I thought I would give a very brief into to the topic sooner than later - like, now.
Ebike conversion is an even geekier topic than general ebiking. What's more, ebike use has been seen to be a controversial topic in cycle touring circles. I am putting this stuff in here, but if you have doubts about ebikes you should skip on to soon read something about our gear packing and soon the first actual World Class day of the actual tour!
Some insightful questions came from Trish Graham, and I tried to give the basic background to her in an email. I am reproducing much of that email below. For some the content will be trivial and for some gobbledeegook. I am sure our actual experience with the conversions, when that happens, will have a lot more tricky content to it. Let me know if you think you would like to see that, or if this material is quite enough, thank you!
The key to air travelling with an ebike is the "LiGo" battery, developed by Grin Industries in Vancouver. Airplane regulations restrict lithium batteries on board to 100 wH each. A typical ebike battery is 400, 500, or 600 wH, hence the problem. But LiGo's are 98 wH. We bought 6 each. When you go on the plane, they are just a pile of not connected to anything 98 wH batteries. But at the destination they snap together like Lego and plug into each other. We bought bags to go behind the back seat, that can actually hold 10 connected LiGos, they say. Other than the LiGo's, the main electric parts for the bikes will be Bafang. Unlike Bosch and Shimano, the Bafang stuff is generic, meaning that it can plug into the LiGo's without problem. You could not put LiGo on an otherwise Bosch bike, for example.
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About the Grin web site (ebikes.ca), Justin the founder is an engineer and he makes everything more complicated than it needs to be. That's why we sought help from our local bike shop. Also really only the LiGo batteries are unique to Grin. The other stuff, or stuff like it can be obtained lots of places
One possibility to avoid questions of what motor to get and where to place it, the drive train, the control console, etc. etc. is to find an appropriate bike locally and to just adapt it to take the LiGo batteries. But most shops sell really slick ebike models with built in batteries and proprietary motors. So maybe the answer is to start with a nice regular bike and to ebike convert it.
I that light, there still aren't all that many parts to decide about. Here are some hints about each of them:
The motor can be one placed in either the front or the rear hub, or it can be a centre drive. Bosch and Shimano have really slick very built in looking centre motors, but these are proprietary systems. Hub motors seem much simpler and more common on a retrofit. Between front and rear, we first chose front, thinking to balance the weight of the bike, but rear is closer to the batteries, and other parts, making for fewer messy cables strapped to the frame. With rear, the gears will definitely have to be derailleur, but that should not be a problem. The motor does not need to be big and strong. A little, nominally 350 watt motor is fine. Typically you get the motor already laced into a wheel, so what you end up actually buying is an electric wheel.
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The controller is a little box that talks to the motor and to the control console up on the handlebar. Sometimes the controller is built in to the motor so you don't see it, but normally you need to get this little box and it gets strapped on somewhere. Of course the connectors and the whole thing needs to be compatible with the motor and the console.
The console is the thing on your handlebars that allows you to control the assist level, and that gives you your speed, your battery level, distance travelled, current assist level, etc. The one from Grin, that they call the Cycle Analyst, is ridiculous - with twelve screens of data. But the one from Bafang, that we are getting, is very complete but also understandable.
The bottom bracket arrangement, where the pedals connect, requires a little thought. The system wants to see what you are doing with the pedals, in order to provide the correct amount of boost. In the simplest case, it only wants to see that you are pedalling, so then it will turn on the amount of boost level you have requested at the console. Next simplest wants to see that you are pedalling, and how fast. Both of these are called cadence sensors. We think these are lame. What we like is what the Bosch centre drives use - torque sensor. With this, the system looks not only that you are pedalling, but how hard you are pushing. The harder you push, the harder it pushes. This gives the most natural feel
The battery. LiGo's cost about $175 each, so 6 come to over $1000. But that is the standard price, around here. We paid $1200 for the 400 wH Bosch battery we put on Dodie's system when we brought her bike back from Netherlands, having had to leave the battery in Paris.
The throttle. You do not want a throttle! With a throttle, what you got was a scooter, not a bicycle!
As I was typing this, a friend came over, and I explained what we are trying to do, with these travelling bicycles and batteries. He responded with the reasonable question of why not just rent an ebike at the destination? To test this solution, I typed "ebike rental Malaga" into Google. The first thing that came back was ebikemalaga.es These folks have a nice looking Dutch style ebike for rent for basically 15 euros per day. So that would be 900 euros for a 60 day trip. 900 euros is about 1/3 the cost of buying or retrofitting an ebike. So if you had 2700 euros to spend, getting three tours from it might not be so bad? Dodie, I must say, hated this suggestion. She wants her own bike, fitted and set up her way, not some dumb rental.
Comments anyone?
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I put a Tong Shen torque-sensing motor on my trike at the mid-drive. I’m pretty happy with it. At least I was, until my wife bought her own trike with a rear hub drive. She seems to get a lot more power from her 48v drive than I get from my 52v/750w drive. She also gets to keep all 27 of her gears whereas I now have nine. My 11yo trike looks very road-weary compared to her shiny-new trike.
About the throttle: My wife got one, and I say go ahead and get a throttle if you need one. At least in our case, you can’t just switch it into place and go. You have to manually hold it on for however long you need it. That keeps the e-assist different from a motor bike.
Can you tell me the weight of the LiGo batteries?
3 years ago
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For reference, a Bosch Powerpack 400 battery weighs 5 lb 11 oz. The equivalent in LiGo's would be 5 pounds 3 oz - so a bit lighter, somehow.
On the other hand the LiGo's need to go into a bag, which weighs something.
3 years ago
3 years ago
This discussion is worth taking to a forum.
I am looking ahead to converting a bike friday or similar because of the low step through but as Kathleen wrote if you go the mid motor option you loose your front derailleur and range of gears.
Is that why you discounted the mid motor option?
Maybe ten years ago a bloke that I rode with installed a front drive motor. At that stage he could not disconnect the cables from the motor and this made a puncture repair more complicated as he had to work around the attached cable. Is this still an issue?
Of course I could spend more of the kids' inheritance and go Rohloff with the mid drive!
3 years ago
3 years ago
Even my cheap front hub motored Chinese trike (an ebike of ours I never talk about!) has a disconnect for the power cable just beside the motor.
I read somewhere that ordinary internal rear hubs can fail under the load from a mid motor. If true, Rohloff would be the way to go. On the other hand Dodie's Reise Mueller came with an 8 speed internal Shimano hub that seemed totally standard for German ebikes, and it has worked flawlessly, except that it is a total bug to deal with when there is a rear puncture.
3 years ago
Neither of us were geeky enough to do it ourselves so she returned it from Edmonton to Bike Friday for them to do the retrofit.
3 years ago
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I noticed in one case you basically disabled torque sensing and made it into just PAS. I see how one could do that, like in this Youtube with Justin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8caNICjbwU&t=51s at 2:34 of the 7:22 minute video. But Justin is also showing that you can control how fast the torque assist kicks in. Maybe better to adjust that than to disable torque assist?
It was worrying to read that in one installation the LiGos turned off when the assist level was changed. Did you ever learn why that happened? Are Ligo's in the habit of just turning off?
Finally, did you get much experience with carrying the 5 LiGo's on airplanes? Did you ever get a problem about them from Security?
Finally, from Dodie, what were the cases where LiGo was not compatible with the rest of the system? Was it a fundamental or a fixable-adjustable problem?
3 years ago
On the Bike Friday the LiGo batteries work fine, they do not turn themselves off. I find the LiGo batteries worked fine with my Liv bike and that is only throttle based. Also the Brompton bike worked fine with the LiGo's too.
I haven't flown with the LiGo batteries yet, I plan to take 6 next year to Europe. I saw an article with KLM that they allow 20 batteries under 100 Watt hrs on their plane and around 15 electronic devices. Interesting! So I will find out next June/July & let you know if Security lets me board!!!
I really don't like the feel of the torque assist, I did use it at first when I got the bike done and then I got the other bike done with basic PAS and decided I liked it better. So I had them turn it off. It is your preference. Since my knee has arthritis, I find it easier without it. If you can test a bike with torque and one with basic PAS first before you convert, you can choose which you prefer. The torque sensor is more expensive than just the PAS magnet but again the magnet is prone to break so.....???!!!
Oh yes, I like to keep my bikes clean!!! ha,ha,ha!
3 years ago
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Thanks for your kind comments about our blogs!
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3 years ago
fitted with lipo battery 2200 mAh, 3 elements 11,1V. Weight is 210 g. I stored these charged batteries for a year into a glass jar sealed with a lid. Open that jard yesterday and find out the battery has inflated, ready to explode. I am scared now with lipo batteries and airplane travels ...
3 years ago